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  1.  
    Wynton

    Pretty please with a cherry on top.

    Don;t give the KM a list. Just have him pick one, and if he can;t pick that one, pick another one.

    I do find this whole predicament grossly unfair.
  2.  
    Who is the KM? As long as it isn't Wes, they wouldn't know I'm mobbed up yet... right?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Frankenstein:I guess you just told us he's not the KM then.


    Not necessarily. The real effect of the sanction is how it would impact the town's analysis right now.
  3.  
    and that can serve as BD's punishment - I dont care how much of a known inno it makes him.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Frankenstein:and that can serve as BD's punishment - I dont care how much of a known inno it makes him.


    Not sure what you're advocating here.
  4.  
    I agree. We're screwed.
  5.  
    Getting rid of the fact that you give the KM a list of innos.

    Give him a full list and make him pick one at random, and make him pick two reserves just in case the first two dont get through.

    It is grossly unfair that this kind of info can get leaked into the game anyway.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    I don't agree that it's "grossly unfair." The rules explicitly provided that the kingmaker would be "given a list of people in the town who are eligible (pro-town players with no special abilities) to replace you as the Kingmaker" if he was killed.

    This rule may make it almost impossible for the mob to win. If so, you should just relax in the knowledge that the game was structurally flawed and you were basically playing against a stacked deck. But I cannot change that basic rule at this stage.

    If everyone unanimously came to the conclusion that the game was broken and not worth pursuing, I could ask if they mind if I come up with some way of making things more interesting. But I'm not willing to do that unless all were cool to the idea.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    San

    I really don't want to distract you with debating these things with me. Just rest assured that I am trying to interpret the rules in a way that could even things out. But I draw the line at fundamental changes of explicit language that everyone has relied on.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    One final thought which could make things more interesting.

    Perhaps I will offer to everyone - after the day's action - that I will change the process so the KM is chosen randomly from hereon. They can then PM me whether they agree or not. I would want this to be unanimous, though.

    Would you like me to solicit those views after the day ends?
  6.  
    rofl feel free....no way on earth all the innos agree to it.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Well,

    If they just care about their mafia standings, they won't agree. But if they want a couple more days of intrigue, they might.

    To me, this whole thing is just a learning experience anyway.
  7.  
    If Pie thinks he's taking points off of me in the mafia league for this one he has another think coming :wink:
  8.  
    I haven't thrown the towel in yet.

    We're just going to have to have a long night phase and try to figure something out.
  9.  
    I mean it's not even a game anymore. It's just maths, pure and simple.

    Where's the pleasure people?

    Half this town were convinced I was inno and half of them were leaning that way on bb. But for this unfortunate gamebreaker I am pretty confident we would have won, and that would have been a good win from where we were on day 2.

    As it is I feel like throwing in the towel.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Listen all:

    People have disagreed about whether BD's violation warrants the sanction I suggested earlier: i.e., a declaration that he cannot be king for a day.

    I am willing to do this, but again, I do not want to do it if it will simply end up hurting you.

    So, let me know again what you think. If that's not the sanction, then I will simply rely on suspending his posting rights, either just for this day or maybe another day. But I am not going to make the KM selection random based upon this violation (though I'll go along with it if everyone in the game agrees).
  10.  
    bb shall we just go throw in the towel?
  11.  
    Also, I'm trying to understand this stupid theory but I can't. Could you be a pal and try to explain it to dumb bb88?
  12.  
    Could you explain it to me and if I see no way out then I'll throw it in.

    But I'll be doing it with a picture of Chris Jericho making someone tap out.
  13.  
    So KT kills the KM and then then new KM picks the king to be whoever is first alphabetically?

    Then what?
  14.  
    The way it is tongiht is that the km will place the person below you in the list as kingmaker...as with me, that would make you inno.

    I do not think i can beat the list of innos there regardless (I would ahve to get two of pie, pizza and wes lynched before me) , but in reality they have another broken out which is to kill the km tomorrow again and confirm me. We can argue it saying "ah but there might be three mafia", but I don't really feel like it.

    On day two, we were dead and buried, had an outside chance and we did a really good job to rally to where we were (helped by some inno incompetence of course).

    Today we are simply fighting a losing battle. And you know how that saying goes.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    If it's any consolation, at least one person in the dead thread believes that points in the standings should not be awarded for this game.
  15.  
    So if we map it out the list is:

    Badboywes
    BB88
    BernardDogs
    Cybrarian
    JaneG
    Krazytxan
    Piemaster
    Pizzabynight
    San


    The kingmaker is either BD or Cyb. So KT will kill either BD or Cyb.

    IF Cyb is the kingmaker, then BD becomes the next one. If BD is the kingmaker then bbwes becomes KM and I am a known mafia.

    Did I follow correctly?
  16.  
    bbwes becoming KM makes me a known mobster.

    if BD is KM he will appoint cyb or jane (depending on our nightkill) as KM, who in turn appoint the next eprson down as king....you might think that if we could force KT to be next in line to be king it'd help us, but it doesnt on account of declares and people being able to work out what has happened.

    We are f*cked.

    We have no chance. at all.

    It's not a lock from a strictly maths pov, but it is in reality.
  17.  
    I'm never one to give up, but I trust your judgment and if you don't really think we have a chance, then that's what it is.

    I think we should wait until the BD ruling and finding out who the KM is though, probably.
  18.  
    well bb, there is a 99% chance that you become a known mobster at the start of tomorrow.

    Realistically, do you think I can take this down? I don't.
  19.  
    cyb is km. whoop deee doo.
  20.  
    Right.

    Since they have to kill cyb, we can now take out Pie and hopefully eliminate this game's rationality.

    an inno side led by BD, KT and Pizza. I can take them!!!!! :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil: (no, probably can't)....so now i have to beat pizza and wes in lynch races. That's a bit easier.

    ok game on. a little.
  21.  
    or wynton can save our buts. you know, whatever. :wink:
  22.  
    Cyb is going to make BD the next KM as per the agreement, right?

    Or no?
  23.  
    Cyb being KM was basically our only glitter of hope, so we have that.

    Taking out Pie is obvious, we need to get rid of him ASAP.

    I'm screwed soon though...
  24.  
    If that goes ahead then yes cyb makes BD KM. That's a lock - I was kind of hoping the KM would be Wes or BD and they'd FPS themselves to death, but ah well.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    San,

    Did I really confirm that there are just two of you? I'm not sure how I did that, though I also believe it's been a pretty good assumption for a while.
  25.  
    If the game structure changes, you're not screwed. But we don't look too glittering from this entire episode anyway.
  26.  
    Wynton:San,

    Did I really confirm that there are just two of you? I'm not sure how I did that, though I also believe it's been a pretty good assumption for a while.


    Yes .If there were three of us the innocents were working under false pretences and would have been contributing towards their own downfall. No way you make that announcement if there are three of us.
  27.  
    ...unless the three of us followed each other in the alphabet.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Guess who's not going to be doing any modding any time soon.
  28.  
    I think you chose a complicated first structure to mod on your first go....this is the main reason I went vanilla with the one I did. I really wanted to go with teh diea of delayed deaths, jackals and targets, but that all gets very difficult to balance, same here.

    PS. I hate being balanced and rational about this, but now that the KM has declared, if he can't pick the next KM, that gives the mob a huge endgame advantage too (I think...but then again, given teh events of teh last few hours I think we're reasonably screwed anyway).

    Never let it be said that i'm not fair.

    I will kick myself for posting this tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    What are your preferences? Do you really care much one way or the other?

    I'm guessing your preferences are:

    (1) Play on, with a random kingmaker.
    (2) Stop
    (3) Finish as we started.

    I'm not sure about the order of the last two choices.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Someone also suggested we revert to a total, usual format: i.e., having everyone just vote. Any appeal to that?

    Note, there probably is no way of evening things up entirely, and that may not be the appropriate goal anyway. The only reasons I see for continuing are:

    (1) To learn a little more about this format (which applies if we continue in close to the original concept);
    (2) Just for the hell of it (which only makes sense if most of you will get some entertainment out of it).
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    I'm going to continue the game as we initially started, simply because there is no consensus about an alternative.

    Of course, this doesn't stop you guys from quitting and ending the game that way. But for what it's worth, there are still those who are debating whether this really is a lock for the innocents or not.

    In any event, I believe the point has been made that the results of this game should not count.
  29.  
    Ok, let's do this one more time...

    Badboywes
    BB88
    BernardDogs
    Cybrarian - KM
    JaneG
    Krazytxan
    Piemaster
    Pizzabynight
    San

    Cyb killed. tonight we are loking at this:

    Badboywes
    BB88
    BernardDogs
    JaneG
    Krazytxan
    Piemaster
    Pizzabynight
    San

    Since KT is now the 3rd name behind bb, we no longer have to kill one of them (there will be 3 known innos regardless). Therefore we kill Pie:

    Badboywes
    BB88 - known mafia
    BernardDogs - new km
    JaneG - known inno; king
    Krazytxan - known inno
    Pizzabynight
    San

    Our issue is we have to make sure teh town doesn't realise the km plan works for the 2nd day running. If tehy do that we are screwed. (BBwes declares km, bb cant coutnerclaim with any credence, it forces me to...hang on, is that a 50-50? It is actually...woohoo)

    Ok, good....so let's assume the town kills you

    Badboywes
    BernardDogs - km
    JaneG - known inno; former king
    Krazytxan - known inno
    Pizzabynight
    San

    I now take out JaneG. That's as good as a lock I think. BD probably makes KT king...

    Badboywes
    BernardDogs - km
    Krazytxan - known inno; king
    Pizzabynight
    San

    Here's teh tricky part....i need KT to take someone who is not me out. This shouldn't be too hard as she semi-trusts me, at least at the moment. I think the most likely scenario (where I'm not dead) is that she takes out wes...

    BernardDogs - km
    Krazytxan - known inno; former king
    Pizzabynight
    San

    Here's what I was talking about. I take out pizza, win, and the whole town knows it and cant do a thing about it.

    Game. on.
  30.  
    Our issue is we have to make sure teh town doesn't realise the km plan works for the 2nd day running. If tehy do that we are screwed. (BBwes declares km, bb cant coutnerclaim with any credence, it forces me to...hang on, is that a 50-50? It is actually...woohoo)

    No, it's not. The one above in the alpha list will always be the fake claimer.

    If at this stage teh town kill BD:

    Badboywes
    BB88 - known mafia
    BernardDogs - new km
    JaneG - known inno; king
    Krazytxan - known inno
    Pizzabynight
    San

    I am left at night with:

    bbwes
    BB88 - known mafia
    JaneG - known inno; king
    Krazytxan - known inno
    Pizzabynight
    San

    wes will be the next kingmaker, unless I kill him, which will make janeg the next kingmaker and KT the next king, making it:

    BB88 - known mafia
    JaneG - known inno; former king; kingmaker
    Krazytxan - known inno; king
    Pizzabynight
    San

    If pizza was teh mafia, I'd be kingmaker. I cannot counterclaim Jane as she is a known inno.

    I think that's a loss as it stands. I need to work out if there's a situation where one of the others are mobbed up where it is not a lock win.

    BB - whatever you do, do not make a hint of a suggestion that this plan might work tomorrow as well in teh gamethread. I am amazed no one has clicked yet,a nd if they don't we're ok. If they do, we're dead.
  31.  
    Thinking it through (I need to get this all down on paper as it is too complicated to keep in my head)

    This is the key phase to the town's lock (i.e. after they kill BD):

    bbwes
    BB88 - known mafia
    JaneG - known inno; former king
    Krazytxan - known inno
    Pizzabynight
    San

    They will probably instruct BD as follows:

    if pizza is mobbed up make san kingmaker. Thus if san claims KM, pizza is mobbed up. Pizza can;t counterclaim because there's no way BD appoints him Km.

    Equally, if san and bb come out claiming km, San has to be the mobbed up one, and if bbwes and pizza claim, then bbwes is the mobbed up one.

    I am sorry to say, if the town does realise this, they have a lock.

    KT. Please post your kill overnight. Cyb and Pie will spot this. The rest might not.
  32.  
    But how do i go about killing to make up for this?

    If I kill pizza, using the pizza,wes and san for kingmakers logic, one of us has to be, regardless. That leaves two known innos, one known mobster, me and wes both claiming KM, and both appointing the same king.

    Ok it is NOT a lock. But we have to be very thoughtful with out nightkills. And the reality is that the nightkill will probably give it away if the town is really on the ball.
  33.  
    PHEW! People, when you get to reading this I want you to know how much effort that took.

    Those of you (cough pie cough) who are convinced I would have thought this through properly on day 1 are utterly insane. :tongue:
  34.  
    Frankenstein:But how do i go about killing to make up for this?

    If I kill pizza, then KT should be the Km regardless. That leaves two known innos, one known mobster, me and wes both claiming KM, and both appointing the same king.



    oh btw (so i don't repanic at this later) - the reason we all appoint the same kign is that there will be two known innos (one former king) and it is a final day. A mafia king there means a mafia win,.
  35.  
    So my job is to basically do nothing to incriminate you?
  36.  
    Also, you are a genius and I love you.
  37.  
    ah feck.

    Im wrong, there is a lock.

    Just assign one of the known innos as KM to each of the potential mafia, and if neitehr of them are the km say it's the third.

    Yup. we're screwed.

    What odds they work it out?