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    • CommentAuthornsidestrate
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007 edited
     
    I'm working on blocking all the active players.
  1.  
    I believe that there is a fool-proof strategy for the innocents. It revolves around the KingMaker.

    The KM should reveal himself and ask the King to kill him. He should then provide a list like this:

    TARGET
    bbwes Cyb JaneG Nutjob San TRK
    bb88 Fojar KT Pizza SJ Wade
    BD Fumseck MX Piemaster TP

    --------------

    ALL THE SAME:
    San SJ TP Nutjob Pizza Piemaster TRK Wade

    ==============================================

    This will allow the dead KM to "investigate" three players (or more) at once. In my example, he is "investigating" bbwes, bb88 and BD. If only of the list of three is eligible to be KM (that is to say, is NOT a special), the KM will name him as the new KM. So, if the new KM is bb88, everyone knows that bbwes and BD are specials. If only one of the three IS a special, the KM will choose the first eligible player from the list that follows him. If bb88 is the only special in the list, he will name Fojar as the new KM. If Fojar is special, he will name KT as the new KM. If KT is named the new KM, the town will know that bb88 and Fojar are special and that KT, bbwes and BD are innos. If none of the three are special, he will choose the first available name from the "ALL THE SAME" list. If ALL of the three are special, he will choose the LAST available name from the "ALL THE SAME" list.

    Some people equate to two possible outcomes. If Piemaster is named the new KM, EITHER (1) BD, Fumseck and MX are special + bbwes and bb88 are innos or (2) bbwes, bb88, BD, Wade and TRK are specials. You lynch bbwes or bb88 and you know which is the case.

    This will result in an early exposure or death to the inno specials, but it doesn't matter.
  2.  
    You should attempt to make your target list as likely to be innocent as you can manage and the start of the "ALL THE SAME" list to be as likely to be evil as you can. If you need to repeat this process the next day, you would lower your number of targets to two, I think. Specials should probably reveal themselves the next day.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Hi to the newly dead.

    Reading the game thread makes me realize that algebra was never my strong suit.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Nside,

    Would increasing the number of innocent specials to a certain point ruin your strategy? If so, when?
  3.  
    Wynton:Nside,

    Would increasing the number of innocent specials to a certain point ruin your strategy? If so, when?


    I think so. Although I think it still might work, but it would call for a mass reveal. The only real solution is a random assignment of the KingMaker, I think.
  4.  
    I've added TP and TRK to the dead thread along with Sullen.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Hello all.

    WTF is going on? I can't believe the mafia bumped me off, I was the most suspicious in most people's eyes - unless most of those people saying that were the mafia.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    So who's more likely to win at this point?

    The hero has been lost, but that character was of limited value. The main point of the hero, I think, was to increase the number of specials and make it harder for the mob to reach conclusions about the detective. And now that the vig's bullet has been shot, I suppose the chance of a false Vig claim goes up.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    TP,

    Look at what Wade said. He said that the mob probably thought you were a special for the same reasons you appeared suspicious to others.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Wynton:TP,

    Look at what Wade said. He said that the mob probably thought you were a special for the same reasons you appeared suspicious to others.

    I suppose I can understand that line of thought.

    I hated TRK's execution at the end of Day 1, and I'm not surprised at all that the vig took him out.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Does that mean that you also thought TRK was obviously dirty, but preferred keeping him around for the sake of information?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Wynton:Does that mean that you also thought TRK was obviously dirty, but preferred keeping him around for the sake of information?

    I wasn't convinced of his dirtiness, but I definitely wouldn't have said anything if he was looking like trying to execute me. Once he decided to execute SJ so quickly, it became fairly obvious I think.

    Maybe it would've been good to keep him around for a day hoping to pick up some info from his posts.
  5.  
    One wonders why TRK didn't elect to kill you himself last night. It would have looked less suspicious than hitting SJ, I think.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    I think I agree with taking him out right away, assuming I am totally convinced of his guilt. The problem is that, in this game, you can't assume that you can convince whoever is king for the day to lynch him. And the vig never knows when he himself might get killed.
  6.  
    Wynton:So who's more likely to win at this point?


    I think the innos look to have the edge here right now.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007 edited
     
    My initial thoughts of who's in the den - one of Pizza or Nutjob after TRK's initial post that he didn't want to kill either of them (or maybe that's too obvious). My death in the night has a stink of San about about it. Me and San have a love/hate relationship in these games usually and I'd been calling him mafia from the off (mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I intended to be on his case all game). TRK also went from having San as suspicious to not being suspicious at all.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    What do you guys think of keeping the number of mafia and special innocents unknown? Does it alter the odds in any appreciable way?

    Suppose we had a definite number of mobsters, but unknown special innocents, or the other way around?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Wynton:What do you guys think of keeping the number of mafia and special innocents unknown? Does it alter the odds in any appreciable way?

    As an innocent, I hate not knowing how many mobsters there are, I really don't know how it affects the odds though.
  7.  
    Some games they don't reveal the role of dead players either. Very confusing.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Well, I stole the structure from that other site, which has all the variations. But I've always wanted to try the unknown mafia and special version anyway. It seems that it unsettles people, which I figured would be a good dynamic. It may be that the entire kingmaster requires some extra uncertainty to balance things out, one way or the other.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    nsidestrate:Some games they don't reveal the role of dead players either. Very confusing.

    I said that in the sign up thread. I think it's only the night kills that aren't revealed, lynches are revealed as normal. I quite like this idea, as it really makes for some interesting reveals. Often the town is forced to lynch the detective, just to find out if he's real or not.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Nside, are you there? I screwed up something and need your advice.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    Anyone else here? Speak up, I'll ask you guys too.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    I dunno Wynton. I think either way would be fine, to be honest
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    This sucks, because I'm afraid that I have to abide by my original declaration to let Vig strike each night. But the truth is that I'm afraid it might favor the innocents too much.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2007
     
    I don't really think it's a huge advantage for the innocents. There's always the chance of the vig killing an innocent in the night, so it's a kind of double edged sword really.
  8.  
    That was a truly shit first day from me.

    I genuinely had lots on at work and I was a bit more motivated to beat Bull in the CakeRake challenge. Add to that 40-odd pages and you get a very suspicious looking TRK.

    Great move by the KM to pick me as first day King.
    Even better by the vig to kill me.

    I think there could be some very very strong specials about.
  9.  
    nsidestrate:One wonders why TRK didn't elect to kill you himself last night. It would have looked less suspicious than hitting SJ, I think.


    I just got a "twinge" I suppose you could call it.

    Innocents have got this game in the bag I reckon.
  10.  
    The only thing that could really save the game for us is a bit of luck and a sacrifice.
  11.  
    TP, how many mafia do you think there are?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    I've asked nside this privately, but I might as well ask you guys here too, despite the fact you may or may not objective.

    As I mentioned before, I gave the Vig power to shoot nightly - as opposed to a single time - accidentally, the result of carelessly cutting and pasting. So, here are my questions:

    (1) With the Vig having this continual power, is the structure of this game too heavily weighted to the innocents?

    (2) If it is too heavily weighted in their favor, should I do something about it? Even before all this started, I was toying with the idea of forcing an innocent to change sides (but not allowing the mob to pick the turncoat). I was leaning against doing this, because I personally don't like such switcheroos, when there is no hint in the rules that they might happen. But maybe this would make the game more fair.

    Note, I certainly don't think it's right to do this based upon votes or the discussion. The only justification for doing this is because the game setup is fundamentally flawed and unfair.

    (3) On the other hand, because this entire kingmaker structure is new to all of us, maybe it's better just to let it play out so we can all learn how to set it up better in the future.

    All suggestions appreciated.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    therivierakid:TP, how many mafia do you think there are?

    I don't think Wynton would've put 5 in there, I imagine it's probably 4, possibly 3 (but I think 3 is less likely).
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    Regarding the Vig. I honestly don't know how the balance is affected. I'm not very good at thinking about that sort of stuff.

    I don't think you should change anything now, Wynton.

    An interesting possibilty would be to give the Vig his own victory condition to be the last man standing, but I don't think it's fair to change things now.

    I think Wade is the Vig at this moment in time by the way.
  12.  
    It does give the innocents a certain advantage particularly if there is a detective. How much I'm not really sure. Don't forget the innocents have the huge disadvantage of not seeing how the voting goes down at the end of a day.

    Should you do something about it? No. I don't like mid-game rule changes as someone may have planned to play a certain way based on the initial rules and the change may force a new tactic, and thus disadvantage them. Let's keep it as is.
  13.  
    I think the mafia are toast. Interestingly, I think that the game is probably slightly unbalanced in their favor, but it has gone terribly.
  14.  
    Although I think my KM suicide plan is unstoppable. If the innos worked that out, they would win easy, I think.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    If nothing else, I think we should have an interesting discussion about pros/cons of this format afterwards.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    lol at San threatening to suicide.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    If the mafia can salvage victory here, it will be quite impressive.
    • CommentAuthorSJ
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    least i did something decent with my death this time.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    Hey, can you guys confirm something for me. This question may have come up in other games, and I want to be prepared.

    If the Vig uses his bullet one night, and the very same night the mob decides to night kill him, does the Vig's bullet still work?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    Wynton:Hey, can you guys confirm something for me. This question may have come up in other games, and I want to be prepared.

    If the Vig uses his bullet one night, and the very same night the mob decides to night kill him, does the Vig's bullet still work?

    I believe it's been decided by RPG in the past :tongue:
  15.  
    First one to catch the grenade dies.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    Got it. Lots of activity now, it's fun.
  16.  
    I've just read the last page of the thread alone - something tells me this could be the easiest inno victory ever - even more so than game 1.
  17.  
    Next time I'm told that I am mafia I am not accessing the den for at least two days!
  18.  
    nsidestrate:First one to catch the grenade dies.


    What's the grenade? I haven't caught up yet.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    I wonder how long the King is going to let this banter go on.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2007
     
    therivierakid:I've just read the last page of the thread alone - something tells me this could be the easiest inno victory ever - even more so than game 1.

    They must be on the right track then, eh?