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    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    I hope when this all done someone can patiently explain the mathematical debate. Perhaps I'd get it if I read patiently, but I haven't had the time yet, and suspect it may be over my head.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Ok, I read through Pie's plan and it make sense to me now. The whole thing is possible simply because all of the innocents specials are gone.

    This is why I suspect that the kingmaker format may require having an unknown possibility of numerous specials.
  1.  
    It is a less complex version of my plan on page one. I think it is a winning approach still. The new Kingmaker has to be assigned randomly to prevent this from working.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    One way of defeating this kind of approach - in addition to simply increasing special innocents (or unknown numbers of them) is to have the rule that the new kingmaster would be chosen randomly by the moderator.

    Would that setup be more fun or create a better game?
    • CommentAuthorMXRider
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    The random kingmaker definitely takes the beat out of this game and makes it quite interesting. I also think the vig should only have one bullet (mx winces)
    • CommentAuthorMXRider
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    think someone may have mentioned it in here, but what about a vig that has to shoot?
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    i think a random kingmaker does most of the work at fixing this game.

    in fact, i'd probably say that a random kingmaker fixes the problem completely.

    that's where most of the balance issue lies. i'd say that even with the every night vigi, if there were a random kingmaker this game would be balanced.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    i love the vigi that has to shoot.

    me and a friend want to run a mega-game, with like >30 players, ridiculous roles, random mod actions in the night, changing gameplay, etc.

    one of the things we wanted was a vigi that's forced to kill, we were gonna have it rotate though, maybe like a cursed gun or something.

    anyways, i'm all for the forced vigi.

    i'd like a vigi that kills when they die, whether it's lynch or night kill, they are told they're dying and then get to choose one person to kill, as they go out.

    or you could make a vigi that only kills on day X, that would be fun in a game with a doctor and detective, as much as i am against games like that. especially if the vigi gets put on the block the day before they get to make their kill. if they came out when there was already a detective out with the doctor still alive, it would be an interesting night.

    anyways, i'm rambling. i'm all for the forced vigi.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:Ok, I read through Pie's plan and it make sense to me now. The whole thing is possible simply because all of the innocents specials are gone.

    This is why I suspect that the kingmaker format may require having an unknown possibility of numerous specials.


    it works from the beginning, the specials just have to out themselves day one.
  2.  
    fojar:
    Wynton:Ok, I read through Pie's plan and it make sense to me now. The whole thing is possible simply because all of the innocents specials are gone.

    This is why I suspect that the kingmaker format may require having an unknown possibility of numerous specials.


    it works from the beginning, the specials just have to out themselves day one.


    Right. If the mafia false claim, you just lynch the conflicts.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Eh, if the percentage of innocent specials is high enough, and you have mass revealing and false-revealing going on, I do no think it's obvious that the mob will prevail. Imagine a scenario where 4/5 of the players are declaring. Going after the conflicts could doom the town.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    I can't wait for San to turn up and try and convince them that this is a bad idea.
    • CommentAuthorwade
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    fojar:i think a random kingmaker does most of the work at fixing this game.

    in fact, i'd probably say that a random kingmaker fixes the problem completely.

    that's where most of the balance issue lies. i'd say that even with the every night vigi, if there were a random kingmaker this game would be balanced.


    But what if it results in mafia being chosen KM at the end and he can appoint a denmate as king?
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:Eh, if the percentage of innocent specials is high enough, and you have mass revealing and false-revealing going on, I do no think it's obvious that the mob will prevail. Imagine a scenario where 4/5 of the players are declaring. Going after the conflicts could doom the town.


    but then you cant have any new kingmakers, and the game breaks, because in that kind of game, unless you get really lucky, you run out of regular greens.

    besides, a game with that many specials tilts the board against the mafia, unless you give the mafia added powers.

    either way, it complicates the game way too much.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    wade:
    fojar:i think a random kingmaker does most of the work at fixing this game.

    in fact, i'd probably say that a random kingmaker fixes the problem completely.

    that's where most of the balance issue lies. i'd say that even with the every night vigi, if there were a random kingmaker this game would be balanced.


    But what if it results in mafia being chosen KM at the end and he can appoint a denmate as king?


    random doesnt mean the mafia can become kingmaker, it just means random from the greens.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007 edited
     
    wade:
    fojar:i think a random kingmaker does most of the work at fixing this game.

    in fact, i'd probably say that a random kingmaker fixes the problem completely.

    that's where most of the balance issue lies. i'd say that even with the every night vigi, if there were a random kingmaker this game would be balanced.


    But what if it results in mafia being chosen KM at the end and he can appoint a denmate as king?

    I assume the same restrictions on Kingmaker would apply - ie can't be mafia or special - but they'd be randomly chosen from the vanilla innocents.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:Eh, if the percentage of innocent specials is high enough, and you have mass revealing and false-revealing going on, I do no think it's obvious that the mob will prevail. Imagine a scenario where 4/5 of the players are declaring. Going after the conflicts could doom the town.


    in this game it works from the beginning.

    another solution is to make it so that mafia*4 > total players, meaning more than 1/4 of the players are mafia. in this game that would mean 5 mafia. the problem with that is that it does give the mafia an advantage, but it seems to me that it's either that or make the kingmaker selection process random.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    make that mafia*4 >= total players.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Tall Paul:
    wade:
    fojar:i think a random kingmaker does most of the work at fixing this game.

    in fact, i'd probably say that a random kingmaker fixes the problem completely.

    that's where most of the balance issue lies. i'd say that even with the every night vigi, if there were a random kingmaker this game would be balanced.


    But what if it results in mafia being chosen KM at the end and he can appoint a denmate as king?

    I assume the same restrictions on Kingmaker would apply - ie can't be mafia or special - but they'd be randomly chosen from the vanilla innocents.


    yeah that's what i meant.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Tall Paul:I can't wait for San to turn up and try and convince them that this is a bad idea.


    San is not a happy camper right now.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007 edited
     
    Wynton:
    Tall Paul:I can't wait for San to turn up and try and convince them that this is a bad idea.


    San is not a happy camper right now.

    :cry::cry::bigsmile: :tongue: :cool:
    • CommentAuthorMXRider
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:
    Tall Paul:I can't wait for San to turn up and try and convince them that this is a bad idea.


    San is not a happy camper right now.


    me thinks this has something to do with subtle pm's that wynton mentoined earlier
    • CommentAuthorMXRider
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    in the interest of fairness ot this game, would it be unwise to institute a random KM assignment at this point?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007 edited
     
    MXRider:in the interest of fairness ot this game, would it be unwise to institute a random KM assignment at this point?

    Possibly. As I said earlier, I think this plan goes against the spirit of the game really. However, I think it's also a bit unfair to change the rules mid-game.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Also anything that winds San up is fine by me :wink:
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    I think that the game should just be chalked up to experimentation. Obviously, the kingmaster concept is new to most of us.

    In addition, I think that all of the following were new variations (though it's possible we used them before, unbeknownst to me):

    (1) A vig who had power to keep killing every night (which I included accidentally);
    (2) The "hero" role
    (3) Using an unknown number of mafia

    One thing I do like about the kingmaster structure is the way it lets various people play significant roles, even when they began as vanilla innocents. I assume that those who were chosen as king enjoyed it. I also like the idea of having an unknown number of mobsters and specials. This seemed to unsettle some people at first, but I think that was to the good.

    In the game I copied, they had a "first to five" structure, I believe. The idea was the first team to make 5 correct hits would win. I believe that meant there were a lot more mafia than we had here, but I couldn't ascertain what that number was (or how it would correllate for our smaller game). They had a bigger pool to start off with.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    MXRider:in the interest of fairness ot this game, would it be unwise to institute a random KM assignment at this point?


    Earlier, I toyed with changing the Vig's powers - or forcing one player to become mobbed up - in the interest of making things closer. But I decided I would rather complete a badly structured game, and let the results play out for the sake of learning experience, instead of making mid-game changes just for tightening things up.
    • CommentAuthorfojar
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    well then you might as well end the game here.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Both sides are still trying to win. I'm not ending it while that's going on.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Besides, I still think there's some learning that can be done by watching it play out.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    BD just violated an old rule by suggesting a sidebet. Any suggestions for an appropriate sanction?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:BD just violated an old rule by suggesting a sidebet. Any suggestions for an appropriate sanction?

    I don't think it's really necessary. Maybe just a warning?

    I wish they'd bloody get on with it :angry:
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    This has been a great learning experience for all ... San has every right to be upset, and when the idea of a game-breaking idea was brought up I knew it was something along these lines ... which is why I wanted to ignore it .. That said, when you get a bunch of smarties together, they are certainly going to try to figure out a way to win ... and I think if this format is used again, the randomizing of the new KM takes care of this problem.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Did BD's rule violation give me a legitimate opening to making the end game more interesting?

    For example, could I institute as a sanction the rule that BD cannot be named King for a day?
    • CommentAuthorMXRider
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:Did BD's rule violation give me a legitimate opening to making the end game more interesting?

    For example, could I institute as a sanction the rule that BD cannot be named King for a day?



    wowsers, that definitely could change some things around, lol
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    For MX: After Fumseck was killed and revealed Vig, I PMd him to say I hope he didn' take my in-thread tilting personally ... he said he obviously couldn't say why he killed you because I was still in the game, but I'd love to hear it now.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:Did BD's rule violation give me a legitimate opening to making the end game more interesting?

    For example, could I institute as a sanction the rule that BD cannot be named King for a day?

    All it would do is mean another hour or so of posturing before they work out another way to make the plan work.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Seriously, should I impose that sanction on him?

    I don't want to over-react, but maybe it's worth doing for the greater good of the game?
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton I tihnk these guys would figure out a way to use that as even more of a game breaker ... somehow.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    More importantly, would the town rise up and digitally lynch me if I came out with such a ruling?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Wynton:Seriously, should I impose that sanction on him?

    I don't want to over-react, but maybe it's worth doing for the greater good of the game?

    It'll be really easy for them to work around it, I think. All they need to do is eliminate BD from the list and proceed as normal - that's the way I see it anyway, but I may be wrong.
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Nah, they can't do squat to the moderator ....

    I assume the mafia hated that the vig was given unlimited ammo ... but then loved it once he knocked off the detective?
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    As an aside, I don't think a mafia person has ever been "punished" in one of these games ... it almost always points to an innocent.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Nutjob:Nah, they can't do squat to the moderator ....

    I assume the mafia hated that the vig was given unlimited ammo ... but then loved it once he knocked off the detective?


    That did provide some levity.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Just give him a warning then they can get on with it. KT has to leave in 25 minutes
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    The interesting thing is that I REALLY think the KM doesn't want to come out and doesn't want to be killed ... but the town could force the KM's hand by declaring in bold: I AM NOT THE KM ... would force the mafia to say the same as well.
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Hay Wynton, since cats are out of the bag: Pizza is the KM, right?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Still thinking Pizza for KM Nut? If so, it's not like him to want to stay alive himself if it helps the town out for him to be killed.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    Nutjob:Hay Wynton, since cats are out of the bag: Pizza is the KM, right?


    I don't think you really want me to answer, do you?:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2007
     
    I think it might be Cyb, personally.