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  1.  
    I don't know, Pie. That section could be read to imply that the new Kingmaker is chosen in Dawn if the old one died at Night. The rules don't seem to expressly contemplate the daytime killing of the Kingmaker. As it happens, it really has no effect on the game at this point.
  2.  
    MXRider:
    nsidestrate:
    Wynton:Quick everyone, let's make a plan to tell Pie that he missed something fundamental and now has doomed his team.


    He has missed an absolutely foolproof 100% lock to win for his side.


    curious as to this one actually


    The King (Queen, actually) should absolutely NOT kill bb88 tonight. She should kill BD as the Kingmaker and he should identify the final mobster. It will require a bit of a complex signal, but is easily enough done.

    After the town kills BD, there will three players of known status left alive: bb88 (mob), Jane (inno) and KT (inno) and three unknowns: bbwes, pizza and San. Put the three unknowns on an alpha slate. If the mob kills one of the known innos, name the next KM to be whoever follows the known mobster in alpha order as KM. This confirms the status of all remaining players. If the mob kills one of the three names on the slate, you have to have an assignment set up where Jane is KM for San, KT is KM for Pizza and if wes is bad, either Pizza or San is KM (whichever one lives). No matter what the mob does, the status of all remaining players is now known.

    The only wrinkle I see is that you still have the weird end game state where if the last three are the KingMaker, the previous King and the mobster, the mob wins, because the Mob player is the only one eligible to be named King, even though the Kingmaker knows them to be bad. Now that I think about it, San might be wrong. I think this approach reduces to a 3-1 game that is a loss for the town even when they know the status of all players.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    I'm actually relieved I didn't think it through enough to spot this. Can you imagine if I had to explain this to the town? Took me 3 frickin days to convince them that the Kingmaker revealing was a good idea.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     

    The only wrinkle I see is that you still have the weird end game state where if the last three are the KingMaker, the previous King and the mobster, the mob wins, because the Mob player is the only one eligible to be named King, even though the Kingmaker knows them to be bad. Now that I think about it, San might be wrong. I think this approach reduces to a 3-1 game that is a loss for the town even when they know the status of all players.


    I kind of thought that might happen and so did Cyb. It made my brain hurt to start thinking about all the combinations of who couldn't be King etc and so I just stopped thinking. I would have had trouble explaining it to the town knowing I would be dead though, especially as San would still be around spreading FUD.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    By the way, Pie, a pox on you for breaking the game. :devil::bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    No I think they HAVE to kill the known mobster or they will lose.

    Today:
    badboywes
    bb88 - known mafia
    BD - KM
    Jane - K
    KT
    Pizza
    San

    BD, Jane AND KT are known innos because of the longest tail rule.

    IF TOWN DOESN'T KILL BB88: This happens

    Jane kills BD, who then names the first person after the other mafia as KM. So, he would name Wes and the town knows who the final mafia is ... we'll pretend the mafia kills Pizza, leaving

    badboywes - KM
    bb88-mafia
    Jane - inno
    KT - king (because Jane was king last round)
    San - mafia

    KT kills San, bb88 kills Jane,

    Wes - KM
    bb88 - mafia
    KT - inno who can't be king

    Wes has to name bb88 king, because KT was just King, mafia wins

    I think that's all right ...

    Now, if they kill bb88 today

    bbwes - possible mafia because of tail rule
    BD - KM
    Jane - known inno, can't be king
    KT - known inno
    Pizza - possible mafia because of tail rule
    San - possible mafia becaue of tail rule

    So, the mafia would kill KT, making BD choose a king aside from Jane the next morning

    badboywes
    BD - KM
    Jane - inno who can't be king
    Pizza
    San

    So, BD can choose bbwes, pizza or San

    - If he picks wes or Pizza and they miss, the town will lose, because San kills the other inno and will have to be named king the next day.
    - If he picks San, San will be in a little bit of trouble ... Say he kills Pizza, then he has to night kill someone ... Say Jane ...

    Then BD has to pick Wes as king, since San was just king ... and San wouldn't be able to false-claim KM ...

    So, San would have to NK the KM ... BD, but BD would then name Wes KM as the person following the remaining mafia on the list ... and San would be outed, and the other person would be named King...

    I think
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    Wynton:By the way, Pie, a pox on you for breaking the game. :devil::bigsmile:


    I'm not so sure that he did anymore, unless whatever I just posted is blatantly wrong - (high probability)
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    I gave up a long time ago, trying to figure out whether Pie/San/Nside and the rest of the crew were right about each assumption. But they sure do seem convinced.
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    I think Nside has only taken into account finding known status ... I think my breakdown is correct ... using today getting known status means the mafia wins.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    Jane, if not others, assume BD should be self-executing today.
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    BD cannot self-execute .. Jane is King..

    I see that they are saying tomorrow's king should self-exectue .. I missed that part of the program...
    :shamed:
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    Right, I misread. She wants whoever BD picks tomorrow to self-execute.
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    ok, indulge the slow guy for a second ... since I didn't know about the self-executing plan (which the moderator could say constitutes suicide and will not be condoned, btw)

    They kill bb88 today

    bbwes - possible mafia because of tail rule
    BD - KM
    Jane - known inno, can't be king
    KT - known inno
    Pizza - possible mafia because of tail rule
    San - possible mafia becaue of tail rule

    So, the mafia would kill KT, making BD choose a king aside from Jane the next morning (or they could kill Jane, but KT is a confirmed inno, so it doesn't matter))

    badboywes
    BD - KM
    Jane - inno who can't be king
    Pizza
    San

    So, BD can choose bbwes, pizza or San ...

    He chooses Pizza, who then self-exectues ... San kills BD ..

    leaving

    BBW
    Jane
    San

    BD will pick Wes as KM, and he will pick Jane as king ..... San can't false claim KM because his pick for king would have been Wes.

    Doesn't work for mafia ...

    So, he leaves BD alive and kills Jane leaving BBW/BD/San

    If he names San King, mafia wins, if he names BBW king, town wins

    got it ... maybe
    • CommentAuthorpackone
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    This San/Wes conversation has me rolling on the floor laughing. San is trying his best to talk about the game, and Wes is taunting him. Too funny !!!
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    packone:This San/Wes conversation has me rolling on the floor laughing. San is trying his best to talk about the game, and Wes is taunting him. Too funny !!!


    Totally agree. I hope it goes on for pages.
    • CommentAuthorwade
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    BD:
    "Wes: San isn't mafia. "


    :sad:
    • CommentAuthorwade
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007 edited
     
    Pizza has it nailed, but left San with an out. I'm pretty sure San kills Pizza now and claims he was framed by wes - he could probaby make a strong arguement out of it.
    • CommentAuthorwade
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007 edited
     
    Mods - execution time. Or I can post some Haiku.

    Donkey. Yes you are.
    You did really call with that?
    F*** F*** F***, nh.
    • CommentAuthorwade
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007 edited
     
    thank god i can edit my posts.
    • CommentAuthorwade
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    That may be my best work ever.
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    lol, wade you underestimate yourself .. your Haiku is superb
    • CommentAuthorNutjob
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2007
     
    "You don't have the stones to crown me."



    :tooth::swingin::rolling::peace::clap::cheer:
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007 edited
     
    Wow, Jane and Pizza really managed to cock today up.

    Pizza - What the hell are you doing? Why are you coming out with all this bravado mumbo jumbo about wanting to kill San. KT and Jane (2 TWO KNOWN INNOCENTS) want to go witht he variant of the plan that says whoever is crowned King self exectures so FFS AGREE! Even i thought you were mafia and I know you're innocent.

    Jane - Why end the day so fast? Today was supposed to be about discussing who should be made King the following day. You have completely brushed aside that question with 'I hope BD makes the right choice' and then killed BB88 while Pizza is shooting for the Darvon Cup and not everybody seemed totally clear what they were supposed to do. You have given San so many outs.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I have a vision of tomorrow and I have a horrible feeling we are about to witness the worst innocent implosion ever.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007 edited
     
    Mafia will kill KT, BD is going to make Jane Queen because nobody has bothered to explain to him what he is supposed to do and why. Jane, egg'ed on by San, will rightfully think Pizza suspicious as hell and lynch him. San kills Wes in the night, BD si forced to crown San, game over.

    Edit: Nah, BD won't make Jane Queen, he seems to know what's going on.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    If the innocents lose this, I won't say I am quitting mafia forever, but I won't be playing for a long long time.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Actually I've reread last night and it does look like BD known what he's doing. He thinks Pizza is mafia, but that is understandable and shouldn't matter really. Hopefully we're okay.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I hope tomorrow they have a good discussion of all the possibilities and make sure they know how to play the last day.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Guess I am talking to myself at this time of day again. Nothing changes once I'm dead.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I wake up, read the thread and find a problem. First of all, Queen Jane has posted the execution prematurely, i.e., in less than a 24 hour period. I said I would allow that if everyone agreed, but that didn't happen and I never said it happened.

    Then BD posted after her execution. In fact, he did it 8 hours afterwards.

    So, I need to punish BD, but how?
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Technically then, BD hasn't really done anything wrong. This is what I was talking about on Day 1 when I asked how you'd enforce the 24 hour period.

    If you didn't say the day would end early, then I suppose BD is within his rights to post.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I could also punish the Queen somehow, but I think that the remedy for her violation is merely to re-open the thread and allow more time for discussion.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    You might also need to punish San, since he has sent at least 2 PMs to dead players that I know of.
  3.  
    Nutjob:I think Nside has only taken into account finding known status ... I think my breakdown is correct ... using today getting known status means the mafia wins.


    I said it, I just did it with like two sentences instead of spelling it out like you did. This bit:

    The only wrinkle I see is that you still have the weird end game state where if the last three are the KingMaker, the previous King and the mobster, the mob wins, because the Mob player is the only one eligible to be named King, even though the Kingmaker knows them to be bad. Now that I think about it, San might be wrong. I think this approach reduces to a 3-1 game that is a loss for the town even when they know the status of all players.
    says the same thing you did. I agree that a KM kill now will lose. San thinks it is a lock for the innos, but it is not.
  4.  
    LOL -- Kill everyone in a spectacular fireball.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    The amusing thing is that if San knew it wasn't a lock for the innos then he would probably try to talk the town into doing it.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Tall Paul:Technically then, BD hasn't really done anything wrong. This is what I was talking about on Day 1 when I asked how you'd enforce the 24 hour period.

    If you didn't say the day would end early, then I suppose BD is within his rights to post.


    I don't agree with this. The rules are unequivocal that no posting can occur after the execution. They do not depend upon whether a particular amount of time has elapsed.

    The Queen's error may be a mitigating factor to consider, but I still think BD violated a rule, as did the Queen.
  5.  
    I'm not sure you can effectively punish anyone without altering the game significantly. I think you might have to huff and puff and do nothing.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Nside - I just sent you a PM about this. I may have to leave for court in the next hour. It's still up in the air, which means I may have to leave this to you to sort out.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Mod kill everybody except for Wes but don't announce it. See how paranoid he gets when nobody else shows up after the thread is reopened.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Piemaster:You might also need to punish San, since he has sent at least 2 PMs to dead players that I know of.


    Is that really against the rules? Isn't that just like sending a PM to someone not playing? If he's soliciting strategic comments, I suppose it's different.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Piemaster:Mod kill everybody except for Wes but don't announce it. See how paranoid he gets when nobody else shows up after the thread is reopened.


    I like it!
  6.  
    If you remove BD as KM and go with group votes, I think San cannot win, although he has a chance, I don't like this because it significantly changes the flavor of the game.

    If you appoint a new KM, it totally changes everything and seems unfair to people who have been strategizing.

    If you leave BD as KM and appoint a random King, that also alters everything. It is more balanced than the first two, but depending on who gets named, it may ruin things or it may make them more interesting.

    I think you have to go with a slap on the wrist, even though that sucks.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    These are the rules on chatting we've had for ages:


    Chatting

    - Only the mafia and Godfather players may chat outside the game thread. No other players, including the Traitor, is allowed to do so. You may not send PMs or emails to other players, nor may you chat about the game in IRC or in real life (if you happen to know another participant IRL). Also, dead players should not PM still living players and vice-versa. Any player can, however, PM the moderator at any time and for any reason.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Maybe I should force BD to use an embarrassing avatar?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    But Pie: the truth is that I have exchanged completely innocuous PMs with non-players about ongoing games before, and I had the impression others did it. It was always along the lines of a jokey observation, and never anything substantive.

    Was more than that going on here? Was a complaint made to you?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I'm unlocking the thread, without making a formal ruling yet. I'll probably tell BD to shut up for a while, which may be irrelevant since he might be at work for the day now.
    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Make him listen to that annoying song whenever he makes a post.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Wynton:But Pie: the truth is that I have exchanged completely innocuous PMs with non-players about ongoing games before, and I had the impression others did it. It was always along the lines of a jokey observation, and never anything substantive.

    Was more than that going on here? Was a complaint made to you?


    No, not really.

    But I just thought while we were mentioning people who had broken the rules....
  7.  
    We have had the rule forever, but people tend to ignore it.