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    • CommentAuthorTall Paul
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Wynton:
    Tall Paul:Technically then, BD hasn't really done anything wrong. This is what I was talking about on Day 1 when I asked how you'd enforce the 24 hour period.

    If you didn't say the day would end early, then I suppose BD is within his rights to post.


    I don't agree with this. The rules are unequivocal that no posting can occur after the execution. They do not depend upon whether a particular amount of time has elapsed.

    The Queen's error may be a mitigating factor to consider, but I still think BD violated a rule, as did the Queen.

    But the rules contradict one another then. One rule says the day is a minimum of 24 hours, another rule says no more posts after execution.
  1.  
    I also think that the 24 hour rule is lame and that the King should be able to strike whenever they want. If they want to do it without allowing much discussion, that only hurts their side. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    For the future, I do like the idea of abandoning the 24 hour rule, because the timing becomes another factor to argue about.

    But I don't believe the rules are contradictory. We had a 24 hour rule. Later, I effectively amended the rule as saying it applies, unless I indicate otherwise (based on unanimous consent). That did not in any way authorize posting after an execution declaration.

    Moreover, I think that if there really was confusion, BD should have asked me before posting. It's clear that he gave no thought to the fact that Jane had issued the execution. In fact, I think he was probably catching up and replying, without looking at the end of the thread.

    Of course, any violation was unintentional, just careless. And it was his second, consecutive violation.

    I don' t think there is anything substantive I can really do, though.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    nsidestrate:We have had the rule forever, but people tend to ignore it.


    So all this time I've been the only person not sending PM's to other people about the game?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Another thing, Pie. Collusion at the poker tables is also ok.

    How many other silly rules have you been following alone?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Is there a way of one of us changing BD's avatar? I found a nice photo of a guy in a dunce cap, and would like to make him wear that for the remainder of the game.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Piemaster:If the innocents lose this, I won't say I am quitting mafia forever, but I won't be playing for a long long time.


    Just noticed this. Mafia wouldn't be complete without at least a couple of declarations from people how they're never playing again, etc. etc.
  2.  
    I have to say I'm amazed the mafia are still in with a chance this game. I really thought it would be all over a long time ago.

    And I'm pleased I was killed off early - my fragile little mind would not have been able to cope with the complexity of this game!
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    What the hell is Pizza doing? He is prancing around there like a known innocent when in reality he is anything but. Unless he buckles down and listens to Jane and KT, maybe offering advice, rather than dictating to them he could well lose the game.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Ah great now BB88 has turned up. I assume he and San are going to go for some staged drama to somehow frame Wes or Pizza
  3.  
    Piemaster:
    nsidestrate:We have had the rule forever, but people tend to ignore it.


    So all this time I've been the only person not sending PM's to other people about the game?


    As moderator, I've learned of a few violations, mostly innocent, but in at least one case potentially damaging. In the last game, in a fit of stupidity, I sent a PM to Nutjob when we were on the joint RNG asking him to confirm that he was mobbed up. I then had an attack of conscience and confessed to San. San just pretty much said "no harm, no foul" and let me off. I'm still somewhat ashamed of it.

    I really think people shouldn't have those sorts of messages. Very subtle clues can be provided (or believed to be provided) that could change things. It would really be much better if no one in game ever spoke to anyone out of the game, but I've grown adjusted to the fact that others don't share my code of ethics. Oddly, despite the fact that I frequently disagree with you on issues political, I think we are very alike on this subject.
  4.  
    Wynton:Is there a way of one of us changing BD's avatar? I found a nice photo of a guy in a dunce cap, and would like to make him wear that for the remainder of the game.


    I can do it.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    BD complied and changed the avator himself, I believe.

    And I must say, it looks quite nice!
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Looks like he's done it himself
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Hello everyone. I didn't even know this thread was here until Pie mentioned it to me.

    So much to say...

    First up, San is quite wrong about his lock for the town. He made an awkward situation by sending me and Pie a PM about it, because I responded (maybe I'm partly to blame then) asking what the lock was. He explained it, and I was about to point out that I'd looked at that as well, but realised it gave the town a guaranteed loss, when I then realised that I couldn't possibly send him that in a PM... so I had to say something non-committal about it looking ok, but I'd spent so long on it that I wouldn't look properly until after the game...

    I shoulda made nut king on Day 3.

    I think a declare on day 3 with only the vig left is a game-winner. Haven't thought it through fully. I was reluctant to declare most of the time, in case it did break the game. That didn't seem like fun.

    I wanted to tell KT to hit San and take the risk. Would have been game over.

    I really really really really didn't want to use the alphabetical list. It was so clear to me that it wouldn't yield very useful innos. But I let myself get talked into it by some people. Looking at how quickly the town could implode now that Pie and I aren't around to be sensible in its midst, maybe anything else would have been too hard to follow. But the order I sent to wynton would have given us BD, Wes, and Pizza as known innos...

    I also had a very cunning variation in which the town would have to trust every word I said to the letter, and there would have been a step which some of the time would have been un-necessary and would have seemed completely illogical, but some of the time would have guaranteed the town a win. A third funky approach I had would have forced San to NK a suspicious innocent in order to keep his status unknown.

    And now I'm just hoping that the town remembers to read anything I said. Such as my response to wes where I say look at bb88, San, and BD for the last two bad guys.

    Did I miss anything good in here?
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Cyb,

    Sorry for not sending you the link. I assumed I had done it.

    Most of what you have missed - both in this thread and the den - is a few people declaring that they were positive about certain things being or not being locks. I elected to ignore most of those comments so that later I can pretend I understood and followed it all.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    cyb:He made an awkward situation by sending me and Pie a PM about it, because I responded (maybe I'm partly to blame then) asking what the lock was. He explained it, and I was about to point out that I'd looked at that as well, but realised it gave the town a guaranteed loss, when I then realised that I couldn't possibly send him that in a PM... so I had to say something non-committal about it looking ok, but I'd spent so long on it that I wouldn't look properly until after the game..


    Well, that really sucks. So San has actually been sending PMs that could have resulted in actual strategy being discussed? I guess you and Pie don't think a sanction is warranted at this point. All I really want to accomplish now is the game managing to end in some semblance of an order.
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Nutjob:I think Nside has only taken into account finding known status ... I think my breakdown is correct ... using today getting known status means the mafia wins.
    Wynton:
    cyb:He made an awkward situation by sending me and Pie a PM about it, because I responded (maybe I'm partly to blame then) asking what the lock was. He explained it, and I was about to point out that I'd looked at that as well, but realised it gave the town a guaranteed loss, when I then realised that I couldn't possibly send him that in a PM... so I had to say something non-committal about it looking ok, but I'd spent so long on it that I wouldn't look properly until after the game..


    Well, that really sucks. So San has actually been sending PMs that could have resulted in actual strategy being discussed? I guess you and Pie don't think a sanction is warranted at this point. All I really want to accomplish now is the game managing to end in some semblance of an order.


    I think he just wanted to show off his town lock that only he had found... :tongue: it only became awkward because he was, in fact, quite mistaken :rolling:
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I don't see the need for sanction.
    Wynton:Cyb,

    Sorry for not sending you the link. I assumed I had done it.

    Most of what you have missed - both in this thread and the den - is a few people declaring that they were positive about certain things being or not being locks. I elected to ignore most of those comments so that later I can pretend I understood and followed it all.


    I swear I saw you asking people to explain things after the game... I must have mistook your name for someone else's...

    I've never seen a dead thread quite so taken up by talk of the game structure rather than anything else.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I definitely asked people to explain things afterwards. And I still look forward to a lucid post-game discussion about all aspects of the structure, including the balance, whether or not the town had locks at different stages by revealing, and what improvements on the structure can be made.
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Just when I was thinking Pizza couldn't make himself look more mobby...

    There's a chance this will work well, and a chance it will go horribly wrong.

    If BD really still thinks pizza is stinky, he makes him king, and if pizza is stinky, the town wins.
    If he appoints Wes, wes will either kill San anyway, in which case hurrah!, or he will kill himself, in which case san will win when bd makes him king
    if he appoints san, town wins.

    Hopefully he will stick to his theory that Pizza is dirty, and pizza will stick to his promise.
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Wynton:I definitely asked people to explain things afterwards. And I still look forward to a lucid post-game discussion about all aspects of the structure, including the balance, whether or not the town had locks at different stages by revealing, and what improvements on the structure can be made.


    I think a reveal on day 3 with only the vig left might have been a lock, but I wasn't really playing that day so I didn't think about it at the time.
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    town can only lose if BD makes wes king and he kills himself. Unfortunately, BD is trying to persuade him of the merits of that... but I don't think he will make him king.

    If san is made king, he can still win, but it would involve a lot of effort on his part, and possibly some form of brainwashing.

    Because the others are:

    jane
    BD
    Wes
    Pizza

    Both wes and pizza will get rid of san given half a chance, so he'd have to get rid of them. But then that leaves him with BD, a known inno, and jane, who will be queen on the last day

    i guess his best bet is to kill BD and claim KM on the last day. FUD is his only hope there.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     

    i guess his best bet is to kill BD and claim KM on the last day. FUD is his only hope there.


    I don't think that would even work, because ll BD has to do is make Wes Kingmaker and I dont think he would make San king over Jane.
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    If San is king tomorrow, he can't be king on the last day, but he can claim that he is KM

    If it's jane, san, Wes last day, if wes is km he appoints jane as king, and san has to claim he is KM.

    If BD uses his noggin, though, he would make jane km in that position, and she will have to make wes king. he will then have san and a known inno to choose from. Surely...
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    On that last day, San can't be king, but his hope lies in making an inno king get it wrong.

    BD won't make wes king tomorrow, will he? Surely not.
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    nsidestrate:I also think that the 24 hour rule is lame and that the King should be able to strike whenever they want. If they want to do it without allowing much discussion, that only hurts their side. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?


    I think I agree with this. In the early game it's good to allow time for everyone to get into the game, but on a day like today, not so much.

    How about letting the KM choose when he appoints the new king? He could say then whether the king can act whenever, or has to wait?
    • CommentAuthorcyb
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Piemaster:
    nsidestrate:We have had the rule forever, but people tend to ignore it.


    So all this time I've been the only person not sending PM's to other people about the game?


    I don't tend to. I always worry that it could impact the game.

    I sent PMs to Wynton occasionally during this game, but he ignored them. Now I find he has enough exchanges with everyone else to publish several volumes...
  5.  
    If they give up on the idea of suicide King, San still has outs.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    It's weird, you would have thought that somebody would be looking over mine and Cybs posts from last night today. You know, the ones that told the innocents how to play the end game and why.
  6.  
    I think once you mod a few games and see how people twist every minute statement into something that it doesn't mean, you see how easy it would be for an innocent PM to go terribly wrong.
  7.  
    Piemaster:It's weird, you would have thought that somebody would be looking over mine and Cybs posts from last night today. You know, the ones that told the innocents how to play the end game and why.

    I used to leave long tomes on what people should do when I died, but I realized eventually that they were just so much mental masturbation. No one ever pays any real attention once you're dead. Hell, its hard enough to get them to listen when you are alive.
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I like the idea of eliminating any time requirement in the future, and putting it entirely in the hands of the king. For whatever time period the king chooses will be another factor for the town to consider as to whether the king is good or bad.
  8.  
    I think I talked chrisjp into the dead thread. :thumbup:
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    So let me ask you all here this question:

    Of the active players, who do you think has a fundamentally correct understanding of the end game scenarios now?
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Wynton:So let me ask you all here this question:

    Of the active players, who do you think has a fundamentally correct understanding of the end game scenarios now?


    It sounds weird but BD seems to have grasped it best. Obviously San has thought harder about it, but he has come to a conclusion so wrong that it is worse than ignorance.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007 edited
     
    Time for another Haiku

    Pizza stop and think
    Otherwise you might yet win
    Just the Darvon Cup
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Jesus. this day couldn't be going any better for San if he'd written a script and handed it to Pizza.
  9.  
    I don't think San is completely wrong -- he just misthought the KM kill bit. He understood that an endgame of KM/known inno/San could be a win for him if he could arrange to make the known inno the king on (last day - 1) for a long time. He just didn't realize that he KM kill ends up in that state. He has laid things out in the den that show he mostly has it right.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Doesn't matter now. All he has to do is keep talking to Pizza. Seems like a sure fire route to win the game
  10.  
    Piemaster:Jesus. this day couldn't be going any better for San if he'd written a script and handed it to Pizza.

    Yeah. Pizza seems to have decided that once he figured it out, the rest was gravy. He doesn't seem to be willing to put any effort into convincing anyone else. It might actually be a good strategy, because BD might make him King anyhow (thinking he has a lock when Pizza kills an innocent) and Pizza will then win the game when he kills San. If, however, it results in BD making anyone other than he or San King, it could lose the game.
  11.  
    If BD becomes completely convinced that Pizza is the last mobster, what will he do? I think he will make Pizza King. If that is the case, then Pizza is doing just fine. I don't know if he is doing it for the right reason or not.
  12.  
    It would be a better dead thread if TRK didn't reveal. I think we should have a policy against revealing the "truth" for future dead threads. Not intended as a rebuke to TRK -- it just occurs to me that the ones where everyone is still guessing are more fun.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    If Pizza was sure that San was mafia, then all he had to do today was ignore San completely and just lay out a plan for Jane, BD and KT how they would kill San tomorrow and him the next day and that would be game regardless of which of them was mafia. Now he has managed to look so guilty and San so good, that they may actually consider killing Wes over San if San can be very weasely tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007 edited
     
    Or just lie and say he will self execute and then kill San anyway if he is that sure. Right now he has the worst of both worlds.
  13.  
    Piemaster:Or just lie and say he will self execute and then kill San anyway if he is that sure. Right now he has the worst of both worlds.
    That is probably the course I would take. :wink:
    • CommentAuthorWynton
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    Do San and Pizza usually face-off like this?
  14.  
    Let's look at the various endgame scenarios in detail:

    Appoint San King and ask him to suicide -- town wins. San has to kill Pizza or Wes and somehow talk his way out of it the next day. I'd say the odds of that working are 0%
    Appoint Pizza King -- town wins. Either Pizza suicides or kills San. Either way, I think San is toast the next day. Maybe he can pin it on Wes if Pizza suicides, but I really doubt it. He would kill San anyhow.
    Appoint Wes King and ask him to suicide -- 50/50. Wes would do it and then San will kill either Jane or KT and hope that he can sell the other on a Pizza hit on the last night.
    Appoint KT Queen -- best scenario for San. He has to convince her to lynch Pizza and then he does a Wes NK and game over.
  15.  
    Wynton:Do San and Pizza usually face-off like this?


    No. I think this is the first time. San and Nut/Bugs have got into it, I think.
    • CommentAuthorPiemaster
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    I really really hope that somebody out of the 5 innocents remembers why making a known innocent king tomorrow must not happen and shares it with the rest of them.